Thursday, August 30, 2012
Wednesday, August 29, 2012
Are We Going Back To Eden?
As a Protestant I thought all history was heading the human race back to Eden.... perfection... the pristine and naked innocence of the garden. We are heading back to Genesis where things are simple, uncomplicated, just God and my husband and me in our own little world of fruits and waterfalls, a mossy earth to lay our heads on and perfect weather so we need no shelter.
Well.... actually...
That isn't really what the Bible describes. Revelation tells us rather than moving back into the garden we are going from Genesis to Revelation, from the alpha to the omega, from the garden to the Kingdom of Heaven.
We aren't going backwards, we are going forward.
Eden was perfect but it isn't our destiny. When God told Adam to go and subdue the earth, it was wild. It wasn't civilized. Adam was to make a kingdom. He was to bring creativity and order to the world. All the beautiful raw materials of trees, dirt, rock, marble, gemstones, animals and eventually children were given to Adam and Eve to make more than just a garden paradise but to found a civilization. They were to build, develop, create, fail and do it again until they make their kingdom.
The Genesis Theology
So often Protestants believe that, if we are to get it right, if we are to do God's will we should look to Eden or even the early church.
For those who have this Eden (or early church) theological perspective, they want all, everything we need for today somehow given in the early church. But that is not what God set up. God set up a kingdom. The early church was given the power to develop and even create. They are making and building God's Kingdom on earth. We know this kingdom started as a seed and will see its fulfillment when Christ comes again bringing the great City of Jerusalem, the Kingdom's capital.
This Genesis theology is a real problem when it comes to explaining Catholic thought to a Protestant. They want everything to be clearly seen in the seed. They think the seed is where we are supposed to be. When we speak of the development of doctrine, they look back at the earliest church and if it is not plainly written out in its full form, then somehow it is sinful. No development of Christianity, no building theology, no expanding a garden into a city.
Catholics see the truths of God's kingdom just as the kingdom itself. It started very small, with just twelve men and rapidly expanded. It was the mustard seed. It was the baby. It was the beginning, the alpha and the Genesis of truth. Perfect, simple, pristine (and a little wild and chaotic at times.)
Christ placed men in charge of this Kingdom and told His princes to go and develop, subdue and build in this Kingdom with all the raw materials He provided. Take the cedars of Lebanon and build castles, cathedrals, cottages. Take the written words of the Apostles--make a Bible. Take what you know of Christ and develop the doctrines of the nature of Christ and the Trinity. Dig deep and find the gemstones of the meaning of marriage. Drink the water and eat the bread and gain a greater understanding of the Eucharist.
Take the beauty that you have been freely given and freely make more beauty. Take the gift of sex and be fruitful and multiply! It is the same with doctrines and rites and rituals. God's kingdom is a true kingdom and we are to rule as Princes and Princesses.
His church, the Kingdom of Heaven, is given to us that we may explore and find meaning with a surprise around every corner. Our theology is also to go from Genesis to Revelation, from the garden to the shining city on a hill.
And we can only do that if it is the TRUE Kingdom, the one He promised that He would never forsake, the one He gave the keys to Peter and promised that whatever Prince Peter (the Rock) would bind and loose, God Himself would honor. And remember Christ also promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against Peter's kingdom. He promised as He ascended into heaven that He would be with His Apostles.... even to the end of the age. That is the age of Peter and the Apostles' kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven. What Genesis was created for.....
Well.... actually...
That isn't really what the Bible describes. Revelation tells us rather than moving back into the garden we are going from Genesis to Revelation, from the alpha to the omega, from the garden to the Kingdom of Heaven.
We aren't going backwards, we are going forward.
Eden was perfect but it isn't our destiny. When God told Adam to go and subdue the earth, it was wild. It wasn't civilized. Adam was to make a kingdom. He was to bring creativity and order to the world. All the beautiful raw materials of trees, dirt, rock, marble, gemstones, animals and eventually children were given to Adam and Eve to make more than just a garden paradise but to found a civilization. They were to build, develop, create, fail and do it again until they make their kingdom.
The Genesis Theology
So often Protestants believe that, if we are to get it right, if we are to do God's will we should look to Eden or even the early church.
For those who have this Eden (or early church) theological perspective, they want all, everything we need for today somehow given in the early church. But that is not what God set up. God set up a kingdom. The early church was given the power to develop and even create. They are making and building God's Kingdom on earth. We know this kingdom started as a seed and will see its fulfillment when Christ comes again bringing the great City of Jerusalem, the Kingdom's capital.
This Genesis theology is a real problem when it comes to explaining Catholic thought to a Protestant. They want everything to be clearly seen in the seed. They think the seed is where we are supposed to be. When we speak of the development of doctrine, they look back at the earliest church and if it is not plainly written out in its full form, then somehow it is sinful. No development of Christianity, no building theology, no expanding a garden into a city.
Catholics see the truths of God's kingdom just as the kingdom itself. It started very small, with just twelve men and rapidly expanded. It was the mustard seed. It was the baby. It was the beginning, the alpha and the Genesis of truth. Perfect, simple, pristine (and a little wild and chaotic at times.)
Christ placed men in charge of this Kingdom and told His princes to go and develop, subdue and build in this Kingdom with all the raw materials He provided. Take the cedars of Lebanon and build castles, cathedrals, cottages. Take the written words of the Apostles--make a Bible. Take what you know of Christ and develop the doctrines of the nature of Christ and the Trinity. Dig deep and find the gemstones of the meaning of marriage. Drink the water and eat the bread and gain a greater understanding of the Eucharist.
Take the beauty that you have been freely given and freely make more beauty. Take the gift of sex and be fruitful and multiply! It is the same with doctrines and rites and rituals. God's kingdom is a true kingdom and we are to rule as Princes and Princesses.
His church, the Kingdom of Heaven, is given to us that we may explore and find meaning with a surprise around every corner. Our theology is also to go from Genesis to Revelation, from the garden to the shining city on a hill.
And we can only do that if it is the TRUE Kingdom, the one He promised that He would never forsake, the one He gave the keys to Peter and promised that whatever Prince Peter (the Rock) would bind and loose, God Himself would honor. And remember Christ also promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against Peter's kingdom. He promised as He ascended into heaven that He would be with His Apostles.... even to the end of the age. That is the age of Peter and the Apostles' kingdom. The Kingdom of Heaven. What Genesis was created for.....
Tuesday, August 28, 2012
Friday, August 24, 2012
Favorite Catholic Speaker
http://brandonvogt.com/scsm12/
_________________________
Support a Catholic Speaker Month 2012
Now this is just the beginning. Support a Catholic Speaker Month wasn't designed to just create a nice list. The real fun starts now. It's time for you, and all other Catholic bloggers, to choose one of the speakers above to profile on your own site. Anyone with a blog or website is welcome to participate, but speakers will be claimed on a first-come, first-serve basis.
When choosing your speaker, don't just rush to claim one of the "big names." Rather, consider this an opportunity to learn about someone new, and to help an unfamiliar speaker gain more exposure.
________________________
That is from Brandon Vogt's Blog.
So, I am going to take this seriously. And for my life, very, very deeply seriously.
As wonderful as so many of these brilliant and dedicated speakers are: Dr. Alice von Hildebrand, Dr. Bill Donohue, Dr. Peter Kreeft, Dr. Scott Hahn, Father Benedict Groeschel, Fr. Frank Pavone, Fr. John Riccardo, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Fr. Robert Barron, Jimmy Akin, Karl Keating, Marcus Grodi, Msgr. Charles Pope, Patrick Madrid, Robert Sungenis, Steve Ray, Tim Staples
The person I whole-heartedly choose as Catholicism's most effective speaker is; (drum roll)
Michael Voris.
Before some of you out there roll your eyes, there is a very personal reason for me.
We had been Catholic for only a few months when a friend of ours suggested his website. As we began listening daily to his updates and the Vortex, I began to see a dramatic change in my husband. For the first time in my life, a man in my life started to show symptoms of.... well, manliness.
Michael is blunt. Michael aggressively confronts. Michael punches hard. And Michael accepts no excuses. If the sitting Pope Benedict was the JPII's pit bull, Michael is God's heavyweight champion.
And that is just what got to my husband and what gave him the courage to face some really tough things in his life. God reached out and shook him up through our angel Michael. And if I can, I am going to Michigan one day and give him a huge hug and maybe even kiss his feet. I LOVE this man, for he gave me a husband-- a real, live strong, courageous, tough and godly man.
Lots of Catholic apologists give us the blessing of truth and I am so grateful to all of them. They have given me courage and the backbone to walk with confidence as a Catholic.
But it is rare when someone's message reaches out into your living room and takes you by the throat and threatens that if you don't wake up and be a Catholic man you're going to burn. Rarely does a man stand so stubbornly and strongly without a hint of retreat or political correctness that it makes his listeners sweat.... Michael does that.
Maybe you don't need that. But my husband did and that is from his own mouth and he is as grateful to Michael as I am.
I like my husband a lot better now that he is a man of God... a manly man of God, a strong, confident, repentant, reconciled, uncompromising and full of faith man with powerful fruits of the Spirit.
If you need more of a kinder, gentler and non-offending apologist, then listen to Father Groeschel or Father Pacwa. I have been changed by their kindness and gentleness.
But if you need the power of truth, a slap-you-in-the-face wake up in your faith, watch Michael Voris.
He has a online Catholic station:
www.churchmilitant.tv
The best of the best stuff is getting a premier membership and the ten dollars a month is ridiculously cheap. I sent him a lot more each month.
THANKS MICHAEL!!
_________________________
Support a Catholic Speaker Month 2012
Now this is just the beginning. Support a Catholic Speaker Month wasn't designed to just create a nice list. The real fun starts now. It's time for you, and all other Catholic bloggers, to choose one of the speakers above to profile on your own site. Anyone with a blog or website is welcome to participate, but speakers will be claimed on a first-come, first-serve basis.
When choosing your speaker, don't just rush to claim one of the "big names." Rather, consider this an opportunity to learn about someone new, and to help an unfamiliar speaker gain more exposure.
________________________
That is from Brandon Vogt's Blog.
So, I am going to take this seriously. And for my life, very, very deeply seriously.
As wonderful as so many of these brilliant and dedicated speakers are: Dr. Alice von Hildebrand, Dr. Bill Donohue, Dr. Peter Kreeft, Dr. Scott Hahn, Father Benedict Groeschel, Fr. Frank Pavone, Fr. John Riccardo, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Fr. Robert Barron, Jimmy Akin, Karl Keating, Marcus Grodi, Msgr. Charles Pope, Patrick Madrid, Robert Sungenis, Steve Ray, Tim Staples
The person I whole-heartedly choose as Catholicism's most effective speaker is; (drum roll)
Michael Voris.
Before some of you out there roll your eyes, there is a very personal reason for me.
We had been Catholic for only a few months when a friend of ours suggested his website. As we began listening daily to his updates and the Vortex, I began to see a dramatic change in my husband. For the first time in my life, a man in my life started to show symptoms of.... well, manliness.
Michael is blunt. Michael aggressively confronts. Michael punches hard. And Michael accepts no excuses. If the sitting Pope Benedict was the JPII's pit bull, Michael is God's heavyweight champion.
And that is just what got to my husband and what gave him the courage to face some really tough things in his life. God reached out and shook him up through our angel Michael. And if I can, I am going to Michigan one day and give him a huge hug and maybe even kiss his feet. I LOVE this man, for he gave me a husband-- a real, live strong, courageous, tough and godly man.
Lots of Catholic apologists give us the blessing of truth and I am so grateful to all of them. They have given me courage and the backbone to walk with confidence as a Catholic.
But it is rare when someone's message reaches out into your living room and takes you by the throat and threatens that if you don't wake up and be a Catholic man you're going to burn. Rarely does a man stand so stubbornly and strongly without a hint of retreat or political correctness that it makes his listeners sweat.... Michael does that.
Maybe you don't need that. But my husband did and that is from his own mouth and he is as grateful to Michael as I am.
I like my husband a lot better now that he is a man of God... a manly man of God, a strong, confident, repentant, reconciled, uncompromising and full of faith man with powerful fruits of the Spirit.
If you need more of a kinder, gentler and non-offending apologist, then listen to Father Groeschel or Father Pacwa. I have been changed by their kindness and gentleness.
But if you need the power of truth, a slap-you-in-the-face wake up in your faith, watch Michael Voris.
He has a online Catholic station:
www.churchmilitant.tv
The best of the best stuff is getting a premier membership and the ten dollars a month is ridiculously cheap. I sent him a lot more each month.
THANKS MICHAEL!!
Thursday, August 23, 2012
Catholic Relief Services Employee Rams Pro-lifers
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/woman-who-rammed-pro-lifers-with-car-was-employee-of-catholic-relief-servic

Woman who rammed pro-lifers with car was Catholic Relief Services employee
- Tue Aug 21, 2012 16:18 EST
- Comments (96)
- Tags: Catholic Relief Services
WASHINGTON, D.C., August 21, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) – As Catholic Relief Services responds to criticisms over its partnerships with pro-abortion anti-poverty groups, LifeSiteNews has discovered that the aid organization also has a history of hiring employees with strong ties to pro-abortion and pro-contraception organizations.
One CRS employee lists the pro-abortion Pro-Choice Resources and Institute of Women and Ethnic Studies as former employers on her LinkedIn resume, while another was hired by the Catholic aid organization directly from the pro-abortion Population Services International.
Former CRS employee Charisse Glassman was convicted of assault after driving her car into a crowd of March for Life participants.
Another former employee was convicted of assault last fall after ramming her car into a crowd at the DC March for Life in January 2011 as the pro-lifers traversed a crosswalk.
The latter employee, Charisse Espy Glassman, was a Democrat candidate for the DC school board as well as a legislative assistant with CRS-Haiti. Despite assault charges, she remained at CRS until August 4th, 2011. In a statement on Facebook responding to queries, CRS said they had “operated on the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty.” A victim of the assault, who suffered two herniated disks, reported that Glassman had seemed to laugh as she drove into the crowd.
CRS employee Dr. Amy Ellis joined the Catholic organization in October 2011 after working three years at Population Services International, a major advocate of population control through abortion and contraception.
Ellis, CRS’ Regional Technical Advisor for Health & HIV in Asia, represented PSI even after she had started working for CRS, giving a presentation on “global contraceptive needs” at the International Conference on Family Planning in Senegal from Nov 29 – Dec 2, 2011.
In May 2012, Ellis represented CRS at the Women Deliver conference in Bangladesh, a regular gathering of pro-abortion activists focused on achieving “universal access to reproductive health.” The session she joined included a focus on “revitaliz[ing] family planning.”
Ellis also worked at the Population Council, another pro-abortion population control organization, from 2001-2002.
CLICK ‘LIKE’ IF YOU ARE PRO-LIFE!
Daphyne Williams, who has worked for CRS since 2008 and currently serves as the East Africa Regional Technical Advisor, interned at the Minneapolis-based pro-abortion group Pro-Choice Resources in 2001-2002, according to her LinkedIn page. The group is dedicated to expanding abortion access through programs such as the Hersey Abortion Assistance Fund, which provides “no-interest loans” and “grants” to help poor women pay for abortions.
From 2003-2004 Williams worked at the Sixteenth Street Community Health Center, which offers “the full range of reproductive health services including contraception.” And from 2004-2005 she worked in STD prevention at the Institute of Women and Ethnic Studies, a national public health organization that advocates for abortion access and links to leading pro-abortion and pro-homosexual groups.
Dr. Pun Sok, CRS’ Health and HIV/AIDS Program Manager in Cambodia, joined the Catholic relief organization in 2008 after years working at CARE. A longtime partner and grant recipient of CRS, CARE has opposed restrictions on abortion and partnered with Marie Stopes International as well as promoted contraceptive initiatives in the Third World.
In 2011, Sok represented CRS on the steering committee of MediCam, an organizing body for Cambodian health NGOs that promotes contraception and abortion. He also joined a discussion of MediCam’s 2011 Position Paper as a member of the steering committee. The paper advocatedexpanded access to abortion and abortifacient contraception.
Notably, CRS’ Board of Directors includes Sister Carol Keehan, president of the Catholic Health Association, who famously defied the U.S. Bishops in 2010 when she endorsed Obama’s health care plan despite the bishops’ judgment that the plan included funding for abortion.
CRS communications director John Rivera did not respond to questions on the organization’s hiring practices by press time. However, on their website CRS explains that it “considers all applicants on the basis of merit without regard to race, national origin, religious beliefs, gender, age, marital status or physical or mental disability.”
Tuesday, August 21, 2012
Sunday, August 19, 2012
Unity Through an Established Leadership
[Daily I discuss theology with Protestants. This post is compiled from my responses to discussions about unity in Christ.]
Most Protestants claim that since unity of doctrine seems utterly impossible among Christians, that we must take Christ's command to unify as some type of spiritual unity in heart, but not in unity of scriptural interpretation.
I say, not so, that is not what Christ commanded and the Bible is overwhelmingly against such a notion.
Here I present a few texts (among hundreds) that would help refute this idea that we cannot be doctrinally united. Christ's intent included doctrinal agreement when He commanded unity.
Here I present a few texts (among hundreds) that would help refute this idea that we cannot be doctrinally united. Christ's intent included doctrinal agreement when He commanded unity.
***********
Ephesians 4
Christian unity isn't an option for Christians. It is not something we can put on our spiritual wish list and hope God does a miracle in our lives to suddenly unite us. This is a command by Christ that is just as vital as other moral commands in scripture.
Because most Christians realize its importantance, we symbolize the meaning of God's words and default to the passive position of "Well, I guess we can unite in love and service because uniting in doctrine and under one head is just.... impossible."
Is that opinion supported by the Word of God and the testimony of His Apostles? Look at parts of Ephesians 4:1-16---not just specifics but the overall thrust:
Notice that the unity described here is not an invisible unity. Note also that it does include doctrinal unity.We are to be (not "will hopefully become", or "try to do if possible and keep your personal doctrines of faith") but we are commanded to be unified.
Walking as Christians means that we are unified! "Be diligent to preserve unity of the Spirit." That doesn't mean have good, loving, gentle feelings about others. That's a good thing, but that is not the unity of the Spirit.
Remember what Christ told his Apostles recorded at the end of the gospel of John when Christ was about to enter the grave? His last plea was for His Apostles to be unified in truth and Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come and recall to the Apostles minds' all He had taught them from the beginning so that they could be unified in Truth!
The Holy Spirit's unity is not about feelings or an invisible spiritual oneness, it is a real, tangible, doctrinal unity. This unity is to be in the physical body. Christ set up a real Kingdom when He was on earth, not an invisible one. This Kingdom was to be one in both physical body (organization), under one Lord (Christ) with one faith and one baptism. Yes, all this could be rendered symbolic. But if you read on... you will see that it was certainly not. (Verse 11 begins:)
To make this one body, one faith, one baptism, possible, Jesus gave us leaders--not symbolic, but true, real leaders in a true, real church. It is through these God-appointed leaders that Christians are equipped for living Christianity. Christ gave us church authorities that we can attain the unity of faith.
Notice that it doesn't say that through love we will attain unity, but through leadership--apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastors--it is through this physical, organizational structure God set up that we will attain unity. And of equal importance notice that it is through God-ordained leadership that we will get knowledge of the Son of God and become mature!
Let's read that again to make sure we got it right..... "He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers ... until we all attain... the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man..." And just to be utterly clear that we are speaking of unity in doctrine, St. Paul writes in verse 14--that "as a result" of this leadership:
We build ourselves up in love, in unity, in body, in Spirit, in hope and in faith THROUGH God's chosen Apostles and leaders.
Here, it would be hard to argue that Jesus is setting up an invisible, spiritual church based on a non-doctrinal unity.
The text describes a Christian who is sinning. How does one know what sin is except for what has been taught through God’s Word? If everybody gets to follow his or her personal convictions or their consciences I think this command would be written differently.
Jesus’ command would have been, “if your brother does something you think is sinful, pray for him, discuss it with him showing him what your interpretation of scripture is. Then allow the Holy Spirit to work in his heart and be at peace, your mutual love for Christ will keep you unified in spirit. Everyone is to tolerate other’s spiritual maturing.” That would be today’s answer.
But Christ did not command us in that fashion. He told us that if we see another brother sin, (this assumes moral agreement among Christians) we are to go to him in private and council him.
The scary part of this is that it is not left up to you to decide if you love him enough in your heart to not offend him in the confrontation. Neither does the command give us Christians the excuse that you are embarrassed, shy, don’t want to get involved. Jesus tells us that we are our brothers keeper quite clearly right here. Just do it. Get involved in your brother Christian’s life. It is your business... Jesus just made it your business.
If your Christian brother doesn’t listen, you are then let off the hook. You’ve done your duty and say "peace, godspeed" to him and go.
No.
Is that opinion supported by the Word of God and the testimony of His Apostles? Look at parts of Ephesians 4:1-16---not just specifics but the overall thrust:
Therefore I ...implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. ...
Notice that the unity described here is not an invisible unity. Note also that it does include doctrinal unity.We are to be (not "will hopefully become", or "try to do if possible and keep your personal doctrines of faith") but we are commanded to be unified.
Walking as Christians means that we are unified! "Be diligent to preserve unity of the Spirit." That doesn't mean have good, loving, gentle feelings about others. That's a good thing, but that is not the unity of the Spirit.
Remember what Christ told his Apostles recorded at the end of the gospel of John when Christ was about to enter the grave? His last plea was for His Apostles to be unified in truth and Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would come and recall to the Apostles minds' all He had taught them from the beginning so that they could be unified in Truth!
The Holy Spirit's unity is not about feelings or an invisible spiritual oneness, it is a real, tangible, doctrinal unity. This unity is to be in the physical body. Christ set up a real Kingdom when He was on earth, not an invisible one. This Kingdom was to be one in both physical body (organization), under one Lord (Christ) with one faith and one baptism. Yes, all this could be rendered symbolic. But if you read on... you will see that it was certainly not. (Verse 11 begins:)
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
To make this one body, one faith, one baptism, possible, Jesus gave us leaders--not symbolic, but true, real leaders in a true, real church. It is through these God-appointed leaders that Christians are equipped for living Christianity. Christ gave us church authorities that we can attain the unity of faith.
Notice that it doesn't say that through love we will attain unity, but through leadership--apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastors--it is through this physical, organizational structure God set up that we will attain unity. And of equal importance notice that it is through God-ordained leadership that we will get knowledge of the Son of God and become mature!
Let's read that again to make sure we got it right..... "He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers ... until we all attain... the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man..." And just to be utterly clear that we are speaking of unity in doctrine, St. Paul writes in verse 14--that "as a result" of this leadership:
...we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
We build ourselves up in love, in unity, in body, in Spirit, in hope and in faith THROUGH God's chosen Apostles and leaders.
**************
Matthew 18: 15-17 If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed..... If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Here, it would be hard to argue that Jesus is setting up an invisible, spiritual church based on a non-doctrinal unity.
The text describes a Christian who is sinning. How does one know what sin is except for what has been taught through God’s Word? If everybody gets to follow his or her personal convictions or their consciences I think this command would be written differently.
Jesus’ command would have been, “if your brother does something you think is sinful, pray for him, discuss it with him showing him what your interpretation of scripture is. Then allow the Holy Spirit to work in his heart and be at peace, your mutual love for Christ will keep you unified in spirit. Everyone is to tolerate other’s spiritual maturing.” That would be today’s answer.
But Christ did not command us in that fashion. He told us that if we see another brother sin, (this assumes moral agreement among Christians) we are to go to him in private and council him.
The scary part of this is that it is not left up to you to decide if you love him enough in your heart to not offend him in the confrontation. Neither does the command give us Christians the excuse that you are embarrassed, shy, don’t want to get involved. Jesus tells us that we are our brothers keeper quite clearly right here. Just do it. Get involved in your brother Christian’s life. It is your business... Jesus just made it your business.
If your Christian brother doesn’t listen, you are then let off the hook. You’ve done your duty and say "peace, godspeed" to him and go.
No.
That is not what Jesus command says. He says take two or three witnesses back to the person you saw sin and confront him again. Then, if he still refuses to listen.... what are we to do then?
Jesus commands that we take it to the church.
This assumes an established, visible church with leadership. If there is any way around this command being to an organized religion, tell me, because I can’t figure it out. How do you take someone you think is sinning to a group of people who are not organized and have differences of opinions about theology, what sin is, or even who’s a true Christians?
You can’t take a sinner to a chaos to find repentance.
To establish that the church is the final authority in matters of sin (which is the foundational reason for doctrines--to define faith an morals) Jesus commanded we take the sinner to the established, visible church:
So later when Paul tells us to be one in Body, one Lord, one Spirit, one faith, one hope and one baptism (part one, Eph. 4) it is under God’s ordained leadership and the religious structure already set up by Christ that Paul tells us that we have unity.
This unity is build upon the rock of Jesus and His established authority. Unity is based upon obedience to that authority and if you see a brother sin you are to go through these steps--the final authority being the established church.
This is a church that is:
Finally, if our Christian brother refuses to listen to the church (rather, he claims he must follow his own conscience) Christians are to treat him as a gentile and tax collector.
We could discuss how Jesus tells us to treat our enemies, but that is another subject. At the very least, Jesus tells us they are no longer a part of His established church nor to be considered a Christian. They are now outsiders and are to be kindly won back to the faith as an outsider who has rejected God’s authority.
These are Jesus’ words. Jesus has an established, visible church. And we are to be obedient to it, for it is the final authority. Under Christ's authority we can be unified.
Jesus commands that we take it to the church.
This assumes an established, visible church with leadership. If there is any way around this command being to an organized religion, tell me, because I can’t figure it out. How do you take someone you think is sinning to a group of people who are not organized and have differences of opinions about theology, what sin is, or even who’s a true Christians?
You can’t take a sinner to a chaos to find repentance.
To establish that the church is the final authority in matters of sin (which is the foundational reason for doctrines--to define faith an morals) Jesus commanded we take the sinner to the established, visible church:
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.Please note that Jesus establishes the church, not scriptures as the final authority.
So later when Paul tells us to be one in Body, one Lord, one Spirit, one faith, one hope and one baptism (part one, Eph. 4) it is under God’s ordained leadership and the religious structure already set up by Christ that Paul tells us that we have unity.
This unity is build upon the rock of Jesus and His established authority. Unity is based upon obedience to that authority and if you see a brother sin you are to go through these steps--the final authority being the established church.
This is a church that is:
- A visible organized church
- A church with clearly established authorities
- A Church that has agreement on doctrinal issues of sin and morals
- We are obligated to take our brother to that established church if we see him sin
Finally, if our Christian brother refuses to listen to the church (rather, he claims he must follow his own conscience) Christians are to treat him as a gentile and tax collector.
We could discuss how Jesus tells us to treat our enemies, but that is another subject. At the very least, Jesus tells us they are no longer a part of His established church nor to be considered a Christian. They are now outsiders and are to be kindly won back to the faith as an outsider who has rejected God’s authority.
These are Jesus’ words. Jesus has an established, visible church. And we are to be obedient to it, for it is the final authority. Under Christ's authority we can be unified.
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